As to your speculation, it doesn’t seem that anybody knows very much about this quite yet. What you’re saying certainly sounds plausible.

I wasn’t aware that the MAOIs in b. cappi were of the B variety.

A while back, I was trying to think through a lot of issues surrounding the tyramine-free diet which is associated with the use of b. cappi. It seems to me that because Americans have a diet heavy in preserved foods with an excessive amount of meat we are likely getting an excess of tyramine. The question is, what effect does this have on individual consciousness and how does the effect then telescope to societies? Some time ago, I came across the text of a South American study which concluded that use of ayahuasca “resets” distressed serotonergic systems, whatever that means. The general thrust was that ayahuasca was a possible treatment for depression. Then I came across the writings of an ethnobotanist from Hawaii who was discussing some of the overlooked aspects of entheobotany–namely that the nutritional makeup of psychoactive plants have been overlooked in a rush to understand the pharmacological action of the psychoactive chemical. But of course the total nutrient complex of the plant is bound to have an effect on the body and the nervous system, and the psychoactive component of the plant is bound to make you more sensitive to that effect. Well, this all got me thinking about the diet which leads up to the ayahuasca experience, which is also followed by people trying to self-treat migraine headaches. It’s also very similar to what some have called a “living foods” diet, where you try to eat foods as fresh as possible. Vegetarianism has historically played a role in many religions. Anyway, it seems to me that if you have an excess of tyramine in the body, the body must produce enough MAOs to protect against its potentially lethal effects. But of course MAOs also metabolize serotonin, dopamine, and other neurotransmitters at a rate faster than they can be replenished. So it may be that the antidepressant action of the ayahuasca experience has as much to do with the tyramine-free diet.

Jordan

Just being outside is BORING after awhile in that same region. Even in the rainforest (ueah, I DO know), eventually it becomes familiar, and your brain looks for other things to do, like reading or blogging. Tribal societies had a much smaller population of people, and their education was strictly of the hard knocks variety. You’d spend your life being tired of the tribe. Certainly you’d get far less mental stlmuation from them simply because there were so few of them. It’s easy to forget what a crowd we have here on the Internet.

Nor can I see lots of lifting and highly repetitive chores having as comparing well with the things we do instead.

I brought up Lance because my personal experience says the length of time spent on aerobics is the most important bit. And that’s the one spot where I can see their lives having more neurogenesis than ours. Not that we know.

On the other side, their lives were more stressful than ours. They had to worry about foood and shelter alot more often, and saw vastly, vastly more death.

By the way, I read a paper ahile back that supported said 15hour H/G day thing, and ISTR it’s based on observing the diet and too many other aspects of MODERN hunder/gatherer life. I saw noplace where that was accounted for in any satisfactory way. Modern h/gs have different resources, better skills, more external help, and a different picture of food resource contention. I don’t believe that paper.

Again, anthropological evidence suggests life expectancy takes a hit with the advent of agriculture

Every study I’ve read suggests the opposite. There was even one bone study that had life expectancy of a litttle under 20. But, you know, even a life expectancy in the 40s means MANY kids dying, and parents dying in mid-child-raising being utterly commonplace. No fun.

No, but animals have been–not by me, but I was referring specifically to the episode of Radio Lab I mentioned above, which deals with two different experiments.

So, the question arises of what we do with the rest of the time. Personally, I theorize, yes, without evidence, that writing, blogging, chatting, and gaming are all more mentally stimulating than being in a lightless cave and doing chores, light hunting.

Well, the figure of the caveman is largely an invention. Most tribal societies prefer the light of day, where the food is. We–I’m assuming you’ve been civilized–spend far more time indoors sitting down than anything that anthropologists have observed in tribal life. And we spend far more time doing “chores.” The classic statistic on this is that tribal members average 15 hours of work per week to fulfill all their basic needs.

You mention chatting and gaming. The real life counterparts–having conversations and playing games–are exactly what tribal peoples do with their extra time.

Now, true, it’s possible they got more aerobic exercise on average. We don’t actually know. I suspect they got less than Lance, though, because they’d’ve had to slow down alot when hunting (eg, at least one likely counterexample).

Well, if we can extrapolate anything from the observation of still existing tribal societies, we do know.

The kind of intense, focused exercise at which you’re hinting by bringing up Lance (talk about raising the bar!) isn’t the point. Near-constant physical activity was integrated into the total life of the tribe. It may not have been as impactful as one of Lance’s six-hour workouts, but nothing in their environment would have called for–or required them to anticipate–that kind of exercise. It’s only the abstract standards we apply to our athletes (world records and such) that necessitate such rigor. Thus, our athletes compete not only against each other in this or that race, but against every other athlete on record. Two things are a result of such competition. First is the professionalization of health. Lance is able to shoot for the lofty goals he sets because he is sponsored. The second is the widespread use of doping (and other technological routes, both requiring ever greater expenditures of capital) to push the upper boundaries of physical capability. Simultaneously, most Americans are becoming more and more sedentary, are eating more and more often at fast food restaurants, and are working largely sedentary jobs for an average of 60 hours a week.

In tribal societies, by contrast, health itself is more evenly distributed across the body of the people.

It’s also true that they had more character-forming sorrow, since the death rate was beyond horrid. But no support groups beyond their own tribes.

Again, anthropological evidence suggests life expectancy takes a hit with the advent of agriculture, and the history of civilization is a game of catch-up to pre-agricultural levels. But even where and when lifespans of agro-based peoples exceed those of pre-agro peoples, it is a stretch to correlate death rate with “character-forming sorrow.”

Not sure what you’re getting at with the “support groups beyond their own tribes.” Not sure what essential lack in coping skills you’re assuming that would require tribal peoples to look for help outside their tribes. If death is so much more prevalent, as you say, I would assume that they are much more ready to come to terms with it than Americans are.

I’d hope you haven’t cut people up either to find that one out.

However, it has been demonstrated that physical activity improves memory even over mentally active, physically sedentary activities like surfing the internet and playing video games.

Yep, that’s what we DO know. But, you know, even Lance Armstrong only stayed in the saddle about six hours/day. Our ancient forebears hardly spent 24/7 out jogging except on occasion. So, the question arises of what we do with the rest of the time. Personally, I theorize, yes, without evidence, that writing, blogging, chatting, and gaming are all more mentally stimulating than being in a lightless cave and doing chores, light hunting.

Now, true, it’s possible they got more aerobic exercise on average. We don’t actually know. I suspect they got less than Lance, though, because they’d've had to slow down alot when hunting (eg, at least one likely counterexample). It’s also true that they had more character-forming sorrow, since the death rate was beyond horrid. But no support groups beyond their own tribes.

…the obesity rate among children is accelerating,

So true. If you keep consistenty raising the bar every few years as to where obesity is, well, eventually most of the country becomes obese. MY eye tells me tummies were, on average, alot looser thirty years ago, and have been getting noticeably tighter every ten years. Now, it could be I’m imagining things, but I’m not the one out spreading propaganda and raising the obesity bar.

If I weren’t all anonimo, I’d look forward to the chance to make some easy money on a life expectancy bet.

No environment humanity has ever produced can match the information density at the center of a rainforest. Or even the open prairie, for that matter. You are right that there has been an increase in complexity within the abstract environments manufactured by the civilized over the last several thousand years. But these are not the environments we are biologically adapted to. This is not to say that neurogenesis doesn’t not occur within civilization’s abstract environments. What I’m saying is that, consistent with the findings discussed in Radio Lab’s show on Zoos, neurogenesis occurs at higher rates “in the wild” than in any other kind of environment.

Fat chance.

What are you referring to?

The internet and video games are far more neurally stimulating than the books and neighborhood bball games available in earlier generations.

Well, it would be difficult to verify this, since it would necessitate cutting people open and counting the brain cells. I suspect you haven’t done this. However, it has been demonstrated that physical activity improves memory even over mentally active, physically sedentary activities like surfing the internet and playing video games.

And people are getting MORE fit, not less, because of commercial gyms and ever-spreading fitness propaganda.

On the whole (with regards to America), this is not borne out by the evidence. 2/3 of American adults are obese, and the obesity rate among children is accelerating, with an expectation that the condition will yeild a net drop in American life expectancy. The spread of fitness and dietary propaganda has done nothing to slow the trend.

You’ll find it hard to make the next generation stop exercising.

I promise I won’t even try to make them stop exercising.